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Nov 15^th, 2007 at 6:01pm

Iron Chicken Ex Member

Hmm! Good read.

Or here for the NS article and video, with link to U-tub.

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Reply #1 - Nov 17^th, 2007 at 1:05pm

simeon Ex Member

How strange, I put down the Guardian newspaper having read a small piece about someone called Lisi proposing a much simplified theory of dimensions and matter. I go on line then see this post!

Looking at his paper, I like the coloured triangles the best!

Anyone want to expound further on this. Is it a goer?

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Reply #2 - Nov 17^th, 2007 at 1:17pm

SEF Ex Member

Quote:

Is it a goer?

I haven't risked the PDF (my Vista security objected to some combination of that and the new forum dereferer gubbins!). However, from the NS snippet, it looks to be ticking the right boxes or joining the dots - ie fulfilling the symmetries in a "pretty" way. It's now up to reality to oblige with the missing bits or decline to play along. A beautiful theory or proof is often correct but not by any means guaranteed to be so.

« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2007 at 1:18pm by N/A »

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Reply #3 - Nov 17^th, 2007 at 1:35pm

Doc Strangebrew Offline
Head of Faculty
"Just like herding cats!"
the netherlands

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Posts: 1,908

http://arxiv.org/pdf/0711.0770

Lee Smolin seems taken...what do the panel think...has it got legs...or to put it another way... does it boogie in a four dimensional base manifold?

Be kindda cute if it really explained life the universe and everything...but then again can anything be that simple...then again... well why not?

“I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered!"

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Reply #4 - Nov 26^th, 2007 at 4:45am

newolder Ex Member

The neatest thing i've found so far (i haven't finished the pdf yet...) in E8 is the invariance under 2pi/3 rotation, or Triality. It's a bit like the 'Legs of Man' symbol, in my mind. (Although i know a LoM picture is only a 2-D 'shadow' of Triality - i.e. one of the 'Legs' is rotated pi/3 out of the page.)

Anyhoo, it certainly passes observation so far, the supersymmetry implied will be clinching, again (i.e. when/if it is observed). Oh, and to have it re-written in less jargon would be nice - Philip Pullman does a good job there - even though i know it would make the explanation longer, it may help others a bit earlier along the road to catch up...

« Last Edit: Nov 26^th, 2007 at 5:03am by N/A »

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Reply #5 - Nov 28^th, 2007 at 7:11am

newolder Ex Member

Quote:

How strange, I put down the Guardian newspaper having read a small piece about someone called Lisi proposing a much simplified theory of dimensions and matter. I go on line then see this post!

Looking at his paper, I like the coloured triangles the best!

Anyone want to expound further on this. Is it a goer?

This is way, way beyond strangeness.

This movie (paste url into QuickTime or plug-in) shows it beautifully, i think::
http://www.deferentialgeometry.org/anim/e8rotation.mov

A part of the definition of Cool

, or should be.

Added:: The "E8 Theory Summary" on page 44 of this pdf seems correct, so far:: http://www.deferentialgeometry.org/talks/ILQGS07/Lisi.pdf

ultra- Cool

« Last Edit: Nov 28^th, 2007 at 8:26am by N/A »

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Reply #6 - Nov 28^th, 2007 at 1:51pm

Orval Ex Member

Since I started reading about this kid and this seemingly E8 hypothesis on the theory of all, I 've been trying to understand what this E8 is exactly.

And I have to say that my abilities to comprehend what this really represents has been very limited. It's like the string theory...as hard as I try, I just can't imagine something vibrating producing elementary particules.

I know our evolution hasn't allowed our brains to understand more than it needed to survive in the prehistoric world...but still..it's very frustrating!

Can someone explain me in 1 simple sentence what I should understand about the E8 theory? Thanks

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Reply #7 - Nov 28^th, 2007 at 2:05pm

newolder Ex Member

Quote:

Since I started reading about this kid and this seemingly E8 hypothesis on the theory of all, I 've been trying to understand what this E8 is exactly.

And I have to say that my abilities to comprehend what this really represents has been very limited. It's like the string theory...as hard as I try, I just can't imagine something vibrating producing elementary particules.

I know our evolution hasn't allowed our brains to understand more than it needed to survive in the prehistoric world...but still..it's very frustrating!

Can someone explain me in 1 simple sentence what I should understand about the E8 theory? Thanks

Future generations - if we produce any, Roll Eyes

- will take E8 on board easier than the current set of memes and genes can express because it is, from now onwards, a demonstrable result.

What a get-out clause, eh? Wink

P.S. It is definitely beautiful too.

« Last Edit: Nov 28^th, 2007 at 2:07pm by N/A »

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Reply #8 - Dec 1^st, 2007 at 12:02pm

newolder Ex Member

Quote:

How strange, I put down the Guardian newspaper having read a small piece about someone called Lisi proposing a much simplified theory of dimensions and matter. I go on line then see this post!

Looking at his paper, I like the coloured triangles the best!

Anyone want to expound further on this. Is it a goer?

Oh yes! but it's going to take time-effort to get it further into the meme-pool methinks... Cool

http://deferentialgeometry.org/talks/ILQGS07/Lisi.pdf

Page 44: E8 theory summary

The symbols for “A [underscore] dash dot”

A is real.

[underscore] dash dot => (maps to) “positive, definite”. Time points ->, to the future. We are sure A is real, however, Stephen Hawking in 1974 conjectured, “Time may be complex.”

Imagine the lanes in an Olympic arena where the lane width grows exponentially in time*. How do you measure forward progress and who is racing against whom as time -> ∞ ? What if the lane marking lines also spread at such a rate? Does that make any difference to anything at all?

Imagine next, the depth of the pool increases at the same rate.

Finally (and only because we can count to three properly through triality – invariance under rotation by 2π/3) imagine that the spectators’ stopwatches record two (or 3 or more…) dimensions of time. The scope of this proper, General Relativistic time, T = it, is infinitely larger than the number of numbers between e and e^iπ + 1, for example, and is independent of the unit of time used to gauge it.

This flavour of e8 on youtube-with-the-sound-on has a certain appeal to those of a certain demography:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YiY7t29M0c&feature=related

And this one is more tutorial:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaQ0EjobZZ4&feature=related

ed. Great i-times, now.

* Crudely, =<|

The boundary, |, is at infinity.

Questions arising:

Breitenlohner-Freedman cosmologies require a cosmological constant of precisely what, please?

How do I get to ride dksi near to a 4-d ‘black hole’, please? Mwa, ha, haaa!

« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2007 at 6:50pm by N/A »

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Reply #9 - Dec 3^rd, 2007 at 4:57pm

newolder Ex Member

...

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is re-surfacing at frihost - scarred but not beaten by his recent monumental efforts. He has converted some (all!) of David Gross's, "The coming revolution...", lecture-cast* slides to htm already. Hero, Bikerman, he.

Anyhoo, historical note:

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/coquad.html

Is some related work from 1978 showing that the 'smash product', /\, of an S4 with another yields an S8 and Spin(8) or e8 is the 'maximal group' to describe it. The 248 roots of e8 are projected into a 3-d + time S3 as shown at the youtubes. Each of the roots maps to a 'particle' of the standard model + Higgs and includes supersymmetric reflections - some of which aren't 'nailed-down' yet, but should be soonest - and the connections betwixt. Like a buckyball but bouncier.

_____________

20th century un-reason does not contain the energy for anything to spin.

Everything spins and the universe expands at an accelerating rate.

The Lie algebra Clifford-bundle with minimal action, E8, or Spin(8) contains an 8 dimensional hypersphere upon which, 248 particles** are arranged and are connected to a ‘central’ observer in the simplest way possible. Two of the roots are connected by something alien or quartic. It is a hypothesis of the theory that Triality*** will help resolve quartic elements successfully. Hooraah! The next 8 connect to generate all phenomena observed hitherto. Including some mathematical ‘ghosts’ of earlier reason.

It’s a bit like flying a kite fom the deck of Helen McCarthy’s trimaran in a hoolery-blow that has one more string or button than you can comfortably manage. It's time has come so let it go.

Lisi,"It's either spectacularly right or spectacularly wrong."

Are they on seasonal sale yet anywhere? California would be my first guess...

Golden compasses are built after hypernovae. The stories'll end hereabouts alright but they get reflected at c over very much greater plains than Tuvan's imagine****, i guess. Undecided

* e.g. the youtube@ :: http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/10/david-gross-coming-revolutions-in.html

** A few of the more exotic beasties are yet to be described fully: as the theory unfolds, these will become clearer in their ‘language’ definition.

*** Tommy Cooper riding a bike with 3 spokes, the cavalry, calvary or whatever on-tow. Wink

**** Tuvan throats:: http://www.huunhuurtu.com/
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVyyhHFKI8E

« Last Edit: Dec 4^th, 2007 at 9:03am by N/A »

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Reply #10 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 8:38am

newolder Ex Member

e8 in all its glory

wikipedia.

This is how frame 1 on the 'lift' animation looks. It is the net of connections to its 'roots'/nodes. Symbollically each node is labelled as per what it says on the tin.

Some of the connections get weird, some are, as yet, unspoken.

Next, more tests... Cool

« Last Edit: Dec 5^th, 2007 at 8:43am by N/A »

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Reply #11 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 2:59pm

Andy The Boss Offline
Chancellor

Posts: 7,988

Somebody got a spirograph for their birthday then.

Very pretty. Completely meaningless.

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." Herm Albright.

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Reply #12 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 3:24pm

SEF Ex Member

That's not a spirograph image. You can make those "roses" with cotton threads though. Whereas it may take much finer strings to make the E8! Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: Dec 5^th, 2007 at 3:26pm by N/A »

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Reply #13 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 3:29pm

newolder Ex Member

It seems like designers are crying out for this kind of stuff...

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/197

Even if it is only toilet brushes.

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Reply #14 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 3:35pm

newolder Ex Member

Andy The Boss wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 2:59pm:

Somebody got a spirograph for their birthday then.

Very pretty. Completely meaningless.

The meaning, in consistent, logical symbology is there for all to read. 2000 years of pre-recorded effort is summarised and connected stunningly well, imho. At which point does it become 'meaningless' for you?

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Reply #15 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 3:54pm

Andy The Boss Offline
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Posts: 7,988

newolder wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 3:35pm:

Andy The Boss wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 2:59pm:

Somebody got a spirograph for their birthday then.

Very pretty. Completely meaningless.

The meaning, in consistent, logical symbology is there for all to read. 2000 years of pre-recorded effort is summarised and connected stunningly well, imho. At which point does it become 'meaningless' for you?

At the point I see a complex diagram with absolutely no annotation and no legend. It may as well have been drawn by my niece with her spirograph for all the meaning it contains.

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." Herm Albright.

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Reply #16 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 4:37pm

newolder Ex Member

That's simply not the case. Iff, as intended by the author(s).

If you can't read it first time through, there's no worry. There's possibly plenty of time to take it on-board, if you want to.

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Reply #17 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 5:09pm

Iron Chicken Ex Member

Andy The Boss wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 2:59pm:

Somebody got a spirograph for their birthday then.

Very pretty. Completely meaningless.

There's an "interesting" take on it here by Lubos Motl.

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Reply #18 - Dec 5^th, 2007 at 6:08pm

newolder Ex Member

Quote:

Andy The Boss wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 2:59pm:

Somebody got a spirograph for their birthday then.

Very pretty. Completely meaningless.

There's an "interesting" take on it here by Lubos Motl.

Any incorrect hypothesis or calculation it (e8) makes means it goes straight in the bin. Does Lubos or anyone have an observation contra to any of its numbers? Not yet... The supersymmetry test at the LHC is clinching either way, it seems.

Anyone running a book yet?

Quote:

...What you're doing is just a completely childish and trivial sequence of mistakes and meaningless mathematical masturbation that puts you into the same category as Tony Smith or Garrett Lisi.

And that's the memo.

"It takes one to know one."

« Last Edit: Dec 5^th, 2007 at 6:21pm by N/A »

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Reply #19 - Dec 6^th, 2007 at 2:00am

Andy The Boss Offline
Chancellor

Posts: 7,988

newolder wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 4:37pm:

That's simply not the case.

I'm afraid it is. That diagram is not annotated, not explained and not described. I'm sure there is lots of useful information in it, but I should have thought that if its creators wanted people to gasp and say "Wow, like, far out" there should be at least some explanation of what the hell it is. The whole point of creating diagrams is to communicate information, and all that diagram tells me is that you've been a nice chap and provided the forums with its first Christmas decoration. Thanks for that!

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." Herm Albright.

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